3cx10000 Ouput Test

[jazzsinger]

Ding Ding,round 3.

this is starting to make the rumble in the jungle look like a slap fest.

 

[GnG8d]

Ding Ding,round 3.

this is starting to make the rumble in the jungle look like a slap fest.

Nope, not me, I'm going to skip the college education that WR0220 suggests, take what I know and a box of popcorn and head to the corner.

The only thing that really makes me mad is finding out that Santa Claus is a fake, next you guys will be telling me that the Easter Bunny isn't real either :blush:

I think the guy doing 1kw pep with a 250w carrier will be saddened too, when he realizes that his meter is picking up reflect or stray RF and he's only doing 200w average swinging a Bird backwards 50w or more :blink:

 

[mackmobile43]

Well lets say that you are running a 25w carrier at 100w fully modulated. You think all is well until you buy a Bird and find out that your carrier is swinging backwards to 20w average ....... is that good, bad or acceptable or unacceptable?

Running compression to bring up the average is supposed to be good, so wouldn't swinging backward from a 25w carrier to 20 average be bad? Even though you are still doing 100w forward pep?

It's just not so cut and dried as some would like. As I pointed out earlier, some meters will pick up reflected watts to make pep watts look higher than they actually are, compounding the backward average swing.

I dunno, that buttered popcorn that CaptKW has over there is looking better and better, lol.

So a bird meter would automatically make you assume there is something wrong in the audio stage of your radio? What indicators are built into the bird meter to assure you of this?

 

[GnG8d]

When I look back about the "modulated carrier" topic, it steamed from this comment "I would never admit, with pictures, that you have a different reading avg to pep on a dead carrier ....... dude, you have some messed up sh*t". I was just pointing out that you were not looking at a dead carrier. It was modulated.

I didn't know, and the explanation wasn't great, so I made some assumptions for sure.

 

[GnG8d]

So a bird meter would automatically make you assume there is something wrong in the audio stage of your radio? What indicators are built into the bird meter to assure you of this?

Dude, I'm just asking. If you have 4x the carrier but swing a Bird* backwards, isn't that bad?

I mean, at a dead carrier, the Bird and a pep meter should read equal, or a Bird* with a pep kit, whatever.

The whole point of compression is to limit peaks and bring up average, so swinging an average meter backwards sounds counter productive.

*I only use the term "Bird", because even some really great pep meters have a problem with average readings, which again, I posted earlier in this thread.

 

[mackmobile43]

Dude, I'm just asking. If you have 4x the carrier but swing a Bird* backwards, isn't that bad?
You make no reference to avg. or pep in this statement so no answer is possible, assuming you mean while in avg mode it indicates an issue in the audio stage or the ps but if you see this in the pep mode then there is most likely a problem.

I mean, at a dead carrier, the Bird and a pep meter should read equal, or a Bird* with a pep kit, whatever.

True to which no one has any dispute about and my pictures make no indication of but which you assume is the case.
My meter will not change when switched between pep or avg. at a resting carrier.
The whole point of compression is to limit peaks and bring up average, so swinging an average meter backwards sounds counter productive.
Not according to forty forty.:laugh:

*I only use the term "Bird", because even some really great pep meters have a problem with average readings, which again, I posted earlier in this thread.

Does not apply to me.

 

[GnG8d]

Does not apply to me.

Yeah, it does, because you made made it so.

However, there is so much wishy/washy, flim/flam in this thread that it is incomprehensible.

Just set your baseline and use it as a reference, that's all a meter is good for anyway =)

 

[mackmobile43]

Yeah, it does, because you made made it so.

However, there is so much wishy/washy, flim/flam in this thread that it is incomprehensible.

Just set your baseline and use it as a reference, that's all a meter is good for anyway =)

Just because you say it does, does not make it so and you made all the moronic post making false claims and twisting people words around.

Still nothing has changed, pep is the only true measurement of an amplitude modulated signal.

 

[GnG8d]

Just because you say it does, does not make it so and you made all the moronic post making false claims and twisting people words around.

Still nothing has changed, pep is the only true measurement of an amplitude modulated signal.

Oh come on, I thought you were past calling people morons. And it was you who said that a Bird with a peak kit ONLY read peak, and never pep.

You see, it's not so simple.

EDIT_____________-

I own a bird meter with a peak board I installed and calibrated my self and it shows the same peak with or without the compressor turned on but it does not show pep and I'm sure yours does niether so please explain where you arrive at the

 

[Shockwave]

Nope, not me, I'm going to skip the college education that WR0220 suggests, take what I know and a box of popcorn and head to the corner.

The only thing that really makes me mad is finding out that Santa Claus is a fake, next you guys will be telling me that the Easter Bunny isn't real either :blush:

I think the guy doing 1kw pep with a 250w carrier will be saddened too, when he realizes that his meter is picking up reflect or stray RF and he's only doing 200w average swinging a Bird backwards 50w or more :blink:

LOL, even Wizard can't produce downward swing like that. 250 watts carrier + 1000 watts PEP = 100% positive peaks and stable average power. Reflected power is easily shown on the Bird and most people know when they see it, the power readings are not accurate. For accuracy the meter must be terminated into a 50 ohm load. The Bird is also one of the most RFI immune pieces of test equipment you can find.

"Dude, I'm just asking. If you have 4x the carrier but swing a Bird* backwards, isn't that bad?"

Yes that's bad because your meter is out of calibration. If you have 4 times more PEP then carrier, the Bird should not swing backwards on average for the reasons that have been explained over and over and over and over again. The learning curve in this case is not sharp enough to warrant further explanation.

 

[GnG8d]

LOL, even Wizard can't produce downward swing like that. 250 watts carrier + 1000 watts PEP = 100% positive peaks and stable average power. Reflected power is easily shown on the Bird and most people know when they see it, the power readings are not accurate. For accuracy the meter must be terminated into a 50 ohm load. The Bird is also one of the most RFI immune pieces of test equipment you can find.

Well for the layman who doesn't have a Bird, they can be very susceptible to stray RF and erroneous pep readings.

I have a Bird with a peak board and a 50 ohm test load, but not everybody does, however the downward swings that I reference are within accepted tolerance? (I guess) But are they good? I don't think so. And yes, Wizard can back swing with the best of them, but that don't make him good.

 

[GnG8d]

why do you bother with this.Its a waste of time.why not do somthing productive no matter what you say you will never be right in their mind.

If you disagree, than ignore it ........ simple solution.

 

[loosecannon]

i would like to make a humble request for credentials gentlemen.

please state where you learned what you know about this subject.

i think it might help if everyone knew who they were debating.
LC

 

[GnG8d]

That's just what compression is supposed to do. Raise the average modulation power while clamping all peaks below a preset limit.

True but the compression should only affect the PEP power.

I'm so confused :blink:

 

[Shockwave]

i would like to make a humble request for credentials gentlemen.

please state where you learned what you know about this subject.

i think it might help if everyone knew who they were debating.
LC

Five years of electronics school with the last two spent completing the Connecticut School of Electronics course. This was at a time when the school was one of the highest rated in the field and communications was an intense part of the studies. The CSE jobs placement program helped get me a position at Microphase Corp. were I aligned RF detectors for sensitive remote control devices prior to GPS.

Something about aligning inductors wound from gold wire as small as a hair under a stereo microscope all day got to me after about a year. I quit and got a job at a Motorola authorized service center and got to work with more then just a detector. Working as a 2-way service tech was more fun to me and I kept that job 3 years until the owner told me he would retire soon. He offered me the business for $75,000. I declined and studied to pass the tests one at a time to open my own electronics repair business.

Around 1990 I opened Norwalk Electronics with a $7,500 bank loan my parents co-signed for. The business thrived repairing everything from VCR's to microwaves and CB's to ham radios. We subcontracted repairs from all Blockbuster stores in Fairfield County CT. and amateur equipment from Lentini Communications. One of the largest distributors of ham gear on the East Coast. Our line of work has changed significantly over the last 20 years since the demise of profitable, economical repairs. Always falling back on what was learned before.

Most of what I learned did not come from the paid education. That just got me to where people would initially hire me. The real education came from growing up around two wise hams. The first was my Grandfather John who was a WWII radar operator that opened a radio and TV repair business after the war. The second gentlemen was a retired broadcast engineer named Lenny that I met on the CB.

He said he had be tuning around and heard me on 27.215 Mhz. His Yeasu FT-101 had 11 meters from the factory. Every night he would stay up and take the time to answer any question I could think of on the CB joking about how eventually I would know everything he did. When I turned 16 I could drive across town and learn in person. He took me to the stations he worked at an introduced me to his friends that still worked there and engineers at Perkin Elmer.

They ended up giving me lots of things I shouldn't have had as a kid. The FT-101ZD and high power RF generator from a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer that I had working on CB in a week. When I got my ham ticket I modified broadcast transmitters for HF. Designing a solid state screen shunt regulator to provide 2 KV +/- less then 1% tolerance at 500ma for a tube with handles that runs 11 KV on the anode.

I had the fortune of knowing Lenny for about 8 years. In that time he took me trough every stage of the transmitter from the mic to the antenna. Did the same in reverse for the receiver. Going backwards from the antenna to the speaker. Then he did it all over again for each mode. Giving me his books and diagrams at each stage. He was in his 80's the last time I saw him at his home where he passed. One of the last things he expressed to me was the importance to pass knowledge on and that he wasn't joking about eventually learning what he had.

I was recently asked here "why do I waste my time explaining this stuff when they never get it?" The answer is the same motivation Lenny had. Just because one person may have a momentary case of brain freeze doesn't make it worthless. Eventually if they truly like radio, they will meet someone they respect more then me that will reinforce the same theories. Additionally, the internet and what we type is likely to remain here as a source of knowledge long after any of us have shuffled on.