Horizontal and Vertical -Same Time.

[Robb]

No Robb, IMO, CP just ain't practical unless maybe we're trying to work two specific stations, or two specific groups that happen to be very close together on each end.

Certainly, I have no idea on just how practical it is to make or use either. But all this info from everybody did answer the original post to this thread:

Hi All. Dose anyone run the beam's Horz an Vert at the same time and if so why? Or why not. Thanks.

I found it informative. Especially on how to phase it to get it to work. As far as results go; I think Homer is the one here that is going to find some things out by doing the actual experiment when he gets around to it and lets us know what he observes.

 

[Robb]

ROBB total BS ad,... circular polizarition requires antennas to be fed OUT of PHASE

Am already well aware of that (read my first posts - lol!). My posts were to help get this thread rolling if I could.

Not quite sure just what advantage a left-hand CP would have over a right-hand CP - if any. I would guess that it wouldn't make much difference . . .

Anyone ?

 

[Marconi]

Am already well aware of that (read my first posts - lol!). My posts were to help get this thread rolling if I could.

Not quite sure just what advantage a left-hand CP would have over a right-hand CP - if any. I would guess that it wouldn't make much difference . . .

Anyone ?

The guy in the video discuss this issue pretty well I thought. You might remember what he says, I doubt anybody remembers what I say.

 

[Robb]

From Maco:

Includes 2 lengths of 75 ohm RG11 coax, 1 length of 50 ohm RG8 coax, high quality
PL259 connectors, barrel connector, T connector, and silicone self-adhering tape.
All PL259 connectors are hand-soldered.

Draw your own conclusions . . .

EDIT:

IF the RG-11 (unknown velocity factor) coax 1/2 wave lenth long is on the 'LAG' side or horizontal side; then the CP would spin in the direction of the lag side? Not quite sure why that the barrel connector is needed. Would think that the velocity factor of that coax at a given freq would allow for the 90 degree out of phase? Impedance should be 62.5 ohms.

 

[Marconi]

From Maco:



Draw your own conclusions . . .

EDIT:

IF the RG-11 (unknown velocity factor) coax 1/2 wave lenth long is on the 'LAG' side or horizontal side; then the CP would spin in the direction of the lag side? Not quite sure why that the barrel connector is needed. Would think that the velocity factor of that coax at a given freq would allow for the 90 degree out of phase? Impedance should be 62.5 ohms.

Robb, I think we might be looking at two links talking about the same thing and showing something different.

Not that it really matters, but I think you feel something is wrong here in the links, just like I do.

 

[Marconi]

I think this link to Maco's service will clear up any confusion.

The barrel connector is used in the horizontal side of the harness to connect B to A, and it is shown clearly in the Ultimate Guys site, and this link to Maco's service at: http://www.servicedocs.com/ARTIKELEN/7200254540002.PDF

I think every thing is OK, and there is no real mess-up involved.

 

[silvereagle1]

I would like to Thank all of you for posting. I see there is a lot to learn about doing this but i think it can be done with a littel study. I may give it a go if I dont like it I can always change it back. Thanks and God Bless you and yours.

 

[Ronald Taylor]

Hello this is minimaul from Baltimore MD. 73's to all the intelligent cber' s.

 

[W4KVW]

I had an old antenna switch from a set of Moonraker 4 beams years ago & it had a position where when switched to that position it used both vertical & horizontal elements at the same time. I could see there being a possible advantage on receive due to there being less fading on long distance or skip signals but I always thought on transmit it would split the output power between the two & depending upon conditions & could actually hurt you transmitted signal? Someone else may have already mentioned this since I only read one page of the comments.

SIX-SHOOTER

 

[Mustang 131]

How about this twist. One radio feeding two separate amps. One going into the vertical and the other horizontal. No db lost, no circular losses.

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

How about this twist. One radio feeding two separate amps. One going into the vertical and the other horizontal. No db lost, no circular losses.

I always wondered what it would do if I had two antennas with two radios on the same channel with a mic in each hand talking into both at the same time?

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

How about this twist. One radio feeding two separate amps. One going into the vertical and the other horizontal. No db lost, no circular losses.

You are still splitting your power from what you could have if you simply combined those two amps and fed one antenna and you still have 3 dB loss on receive.

 

[Mustang 131]

You are still splitting your power from what you could have if you simply combined those two amps and fed one antenna and you still have 3 dB loss on receive.

True, combining two amps into one antenna would be more gain at that polarity. But they have to be perfected matched. And even then the efficiency of that kind of combinder is awful.
Besides you could have two completely different amps, power outputs. And the matching should be kids play.

 

[Shockwave]

I've run CP on antennas ranging from the PDL-II to the Laser 400 and can't say I ever missed those 3db when working skywave propagation. Skip is constantly changing polarity and you'll never notice it unless you have a coax switch on a dual polarity beam. When a 20db signal drops to S-9 within seconds it's usually because the polarity of the skip signal has rotated away from the one your antenna is in. Flip to the opposing polarity during that signal drop and watch the signal come up as it falls in the other polarity.

Then you will see the value of CP in skip conditions. You are no longer subjected to the 20db drop that a complete cross polarization condition would create and it only cost you 3db to avoid the 20db drop that happens regularly with linear polarized antennas in skip. Skip signals remain noticeably more stable in CP. The one tip if you're considering CP is that everything on the antenna must be symmetrical other than the 90 degree delay line in order to form real CP. Don't use one piece of old coax and a new type on the other side. Velocity factors of both cables must match or your delay will be offset as a result.

I've also noticed that if you try and "follow" skip with a coax switch as it's changing polarity, there is a period of time where the signal is low on both vertical and horizontal. That is when the signal is directly between vertical and horizontal. Here the CP antenna can show a higher signal than either vertical or horizontal alone since the CP signal is in all polarizations, simultaneously.

 

[W4KVW]

What it amounts to is that circular polarization does have a useful purpose. It is not useful in all circumstances, or it's just too much trouble for too little benefit (if any).
If you are talking about HF then there's no benefit to C.P. unless you're talking to space craft. Wanna try it and see what happens? Do so! Then you can evaluate just how useful it is, if it's worth the time/trouble.
- 'Doc

If that is true that what determines which Circular Polarization (Right or Left) that the antenna will talk? With many satellite antennas they have a switch which changes which you are using since it can surely matter or it would not be switchable. I thought it would only result in just talking on both polarities at the same time which would result in signal loss on both polarities with locals but less fading on received signals with long distance skip signals? I ran a home brew dual polarity four element beam like that at times when I was a kid & I did it with a switch box from an old Moonraker 4. I was to young to remember if it helped or hurt but I don't remember there being any issues with the SWR either as someone else mentioned.

SIX-SHOOTER