Horizontal and Vertical -Same Time.

[JAF0]

I dunno about that,you seem to be mixing horizontal beam antennas Vs vertical antennas and horizontal polarization Vs vertical polarization.

That 6 Db ground gain doesn't apply to F layer paths, (or even Es paths).

As far as the F layer (both F1 and F2), the vertical antenna has a lower TOA and will have a better DX skip distance than a horizontal beam when both are at the same height.

A horizontal beam may produce a better SNR than a vertical antenna because it is not affected (as much) by man made noise which is mostly vertically
polarized.

No, I'm comparing the vertical polarization of my 5 element quad to the horizontal polarization of my 5 element quad.

I disagree with your statement that a vertical will have a better DX distance when it might have a different angle than horizontal but when the horizontal angle is the correct angle the vertical may not be.

I'm also not convinced that a vertical approach of the F layer isn't lossy compared to a horizontal approach.

My experience has found horizontal superior, especially for breaking pileups.
Nor am I in agreement regarding ground gain.

I HAVE found it interesting how often I'm heard over pileups on my first call and over the rest, perhaps there are many others operating vertically?

 

[Handy Andy]

Maybe you should also research Fractal Antenna designs and do a search for Fractal Antenna Polarization.

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

Bump, for circular polarization.

 

[Marconi]

Maybe there are enough details and dimensions here to build the simple looking CP design. The drawing in the article may also come in handy and can be zoomed to make larger.

On tuning you have to consider the warnings and it might not be easy.

https://kd9afb.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/a-diy-2-meter-circularly-polarized-antenna/

 

[Marconi]

I saw a Youtube video showing someone modeling CP using CST Studio Suite. It looks like a very complicated design idea. Maybe Andy will find it interesting.



Edit: to change the word fractal to Circular Polarization.

 

[Handy Andy]

I saw a Youtube video showing someone modeling a fractal using CST Studio Suite. It looks like a very complicated design idea. Maybe Andy will find it interesting.

Thank you...

If someone wanted to know why vehicle counterpoise can be a difficult beast, the answer may lie in the nooks and crannies the vehicle presents itself to be when it comes to the modeling of any antenna with a simple driven arial and working with a complex ground plane or counterpoise image to obtain the opposite working element for proper matching.

Although the concept to think about "envisioning it" isn't hard, but modeling of it, though - is.

 

[Road Squawker]

No, I'm comparing the vertical polarization of my 5 element quad tents

I'm also not convinced that a vertical approach of the F layer isn't lossy compared to a horizontal approach.

My experience has found horizontal superior, especially for breaking pileups.
Nor am I in agreement regarding ground gain.

I HAVE found it interesting how often I'm heard over pileups on my first call and over the rest, perhaps there are many others operating vertically?

Well, you made 3 incorrect comments in just this post alone.

Must be some kinda new antenna theory.

 

[secret squirrel]

Bump again. Ok has anybody tried to set it up. I am in the process of build new antenna setup. Move to a trailer park, but nice yard at the end of the road. Backyard overlooking edge of hillside. I was planning on putting up one vertical and one horizontal on a switch always wanted the setup on a switch just to see the difference in transmitting. The CP has got me curious able building the building a CP harness after I get everything up and tuned the way I want it. IRS said stimulus check was mailed today. Lol

 

[Mustang 131]

I have no science to back me..but everyone I know who has tried CP has got their butt kicked on the bowl. Yagi always wins.
But simultaneously xmitting on both vertical and horizontal with the same radio...but different amps. Hmm.

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

I have no science to back me..but everyone I know who has tried CP has got their butt kicked on the bowl. Yagi always wins.
But simultaneously xmitting on both vertical and horizontal with the same radio...but different amps. Hmm.

With two radios and talk into both mics at the same time.

 

[secret squirrel]

OK I put some thought into this. Going to look at a way to key two radios from on mic. I am sure it can be down. So the plan is one mic keying two radios. one transmitting on a horizontal dipole. Number two transmitting on a vertical. It will be my WV Double Barrel CB. Which after a couple hundred dollars later will be able to talk as well as my mobile. It will be a cool story.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

OK I put some thought into this. Going to look at a way to key two radios from on mic. I am sure it can be down. So the plan is one mic keying two radios. one transmitting on a horizontal dipole. Number two transmitting on a vertical. It will be my WV Double Barrel CB. Which after a couple hundred dollars later will be able to talk as well as my mobile. It will be a cool story.

So you plan on jamming yourself with an additional carrier do you?

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

So you plan on jamming yourself with an additional carrier do you?

But it's a second carrier modulated with the same information?

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

But it's a second carrier modulated with the same information?

Unless the TX frequency is EXACTLY the same the two signals will beat against each other and cause issues. NOBODY that I know of does what is being proposed here. Even terrestrial DAB FM broadcast that uses the same frequencies for wider than normal coverage from multiple transmitters uses GPS time lock to sync the frequencies of each transmitter. Even a difference in transmission line length will cause a phase delay.

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

Unless the TX frequency is EXACTLY the same the two signals will beat against each other and cause issues. NOBODY that I know of does what is being proposed here. Even terrestrial DAB FM broadcast that uses the same frequencies for wider than normal coverage from multiple transmitters uses GPS time lock to sync the frequencies of each transmitter. Even a difference in transmission line length will cause a phase delay.

If the frequency of each radio were off from each other slightly, at some point the signals would add and then change to subtract and then back to add. Like the windshield wipers on the school bus. Sometimes they are in phase and sometimes not. Maybe this would cause the signal to sweep in a slightly directional pattern that goes 360 degrees around the antennas? I guess it probably wouldn't do better than one radio by itself.