Modified Vector 4000

[BOOTY MONSTER]

thanks marconi . ive got four 6 ft sections of aluminum tubing that i can make a maximum 23 ft long element out of . i have 1 inch , 1 1/8 , 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 inch outside diameter sections . i could just get two more 6 ft sections in 1 1/2 and 1 5/8 diameter that will allow up to a 33 ft 8 inch element . more than what would be needed , but it will keep the taper pretty consistent , and of course i can adjust the length since its all telescopic .

what i would PREFER to do is use four 3 ft sections at the bottom ( 1 1/2 , 1 5/8 , 1 3/4 and 1 7/8 ) because it works very nicely and cleanly with the mounting idea i have in mind for attaching to the mast . is that enough difference to be a significant problem ? or is it something that the gamma will compensate for when tuning it ?

i want to use the four straight 56 inch long 3/8 inch solid aluminum rods from my current ground plane for the four elements to make the cone . ill order eight 1/2 inch x 3 ft tubes to go with them since the will fit over each end nicely and then i can adjust anywhere from 72 inches to 120 inches for the basket element length . the 1 inch x 1/8 inch aluminum strip from lowes should do fine for the loop i think . their 8 ft length with a 1 1/2 inch over lap wil make a nice 30 inch loop . ive still got the loop i made the maco copy on the wood 2x4 , i could use that to add to it if a bigger loop is suggested or to try on my own .

and yes bob85 ... ive got what i think will be a pretty physically small idea in mind for attaching the bottom of the cone elements and SO-239 to the vertical .

 

[Marconi]

Booty what you're suggesting might work fine, not sure though. It appears that these big verticals, using a gamma match, need the bottom section to be pretty much the same diameter for around a 1/4 wave up and then tapper. My Sigma4, Wolf .64, and I believe the Vector 4000, being similar comes to mind in such cases.

Your coil type matching scheme may not have a similar issue, but again not sure.

I'm curious how the new vertical you've been working on for a while is working out, but I won't ask again. Hopefully your snows has cleared away by now.

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

well , i think that the place i have the antenna at is a combination for too low to the ground and just a bad place . it works with the coil maybe , just maybe a little less than it did with the 4 full 1/4 wl H elements and the maco type loop . but at the other house with the maco loop and the four sloped 108 inch wires it did much much better as i recall with the feedpoint just 8 feet off the ground . the feedpoint on the ones here on the deck is about 6 ft off the ground . im sure if it was up over the entire house about 26-27 feet up in the air that it would do much better .

two things about it i dont like that height can't fix though is that the doubled 5/4 solid plastic limber deck boards that everything attaches to is very very heavy , the pressure treated wood 2x4 was very very light in comparison . but id replace wood every 2-3 years if i were gonna use it . if i were gonna keep it similar to the coil or maco style i think id replace the plastic with a wood 2x6 ..... plus the copper coil will turn black , and id just like a physically stronger way to connect the tuning device , not having to use SS to interface between copper and aluminum to keep them from interacting and oxidizing in the weather .

so the sigma/vector/lw150 will eliminate the need for a insulating plate/board , keep all construction materials the same , provide a smaller foot print and most likely better tx and rx .

ATM im planning on ordering the tubing for this next week .

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

bump for the nice pics
thanks DWB

 

[bob85]

i can't tell you how much effect changing the relative tube diameters so much will have booty,
faced with the same dilema a while back i went with the 6ft lengths and only up one tube size,
your fatter faster taper idea will be stiffer and stronger, and catch more wind, your top end is fat and slow tapered so the stronger bottom may be beneficial in your case,

id go with 6ft tubes for the radials with your solid rod for the top few feet but im sure you will get it working ok whatever tube diameter you use if you spend some time adjusting it.

 

[davev8]

Hi all
I am going to buy the vector 4000 and i have been following this thread for some time,
But i still non the wiser which has the most gain if any, the old 7/8 wave or the new 3/4
The local shop has both, the 7/8 is at a discount £10 less than the 3/4
At the moment am with the 7/8 as the Sirio info i have gives the 7/8 wave a lot more BW... and i like big twigs
So what i am basicly saying if you walked in to the shop which box will you pick up and why..
Thanks dave

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

if i were gonna buy one id get the new one with the longer basket radials , the 4000 .

 

[Shockwave]

I would get the new one and take the ball off the top and extend the whip about a foot and a half. Field testing has proven to me that the longer, 1/4 wavelength radials improve performance and that 31 feet was too long. The odd thing is that I think 3/4 wave is below the point of maximum gain on the horizon. All the models show 3/4 wave is the maximum but in the field we find the whip puts more signal on the distant horizon using this simple formula to set its length above the connector bracket. 9212 divided by frequency in MHz gives you length in inches for the main radiator.

 

[Marconi]

Hi all I am going to buy the vector 4000 and i have been following this thread for some time, But i still non the wiser which has the most gain if any, the old 7/8 wave or the new 3/4

The local shop has both, the 7/8 is at a discount £10 less than the 3/4
At the moment am with the 7/8 as the Sirio info i have gives the 7/8 wave a lot more BW... and i like big twigs

So what i am basicly saying if you walked in to the shop which box will you pick up and why..

Thanks dave

I'm like you Dave8, I'm not the wiser either with the Vector's shifting length that provides the best performance. At one point in time it was longer than 31' feet, and now it's less than 31' feet.

According to Shockwave, I think he reported some time back that .82% of a wavelength was the best length, at about 29' 8". Now he says a less than 31' feet, and that is a big difference.

Personally, I think it might depend a lot on your location and how much trouble you wish to go to construct, install, tune, and raising the antenna up and down while tuning again and again...in the process of trying to find that magical setup.

Bob has a lot of company agreeing that some kit models of the Vector leave a lot to be desired...regarding its durability at his high wind location in England. I think that it may be possible that Sirio changed the antenna, making it shorter, and keeping the performance about the same by adding length to the radials and making the radiator shorter for just that reason. Sounds like Sirio was truly concerned with the problem Bob suggested and maybe they were getting a lot of similar complaints. That makes sense to me and I figure big manufactures don't change old line products unless there is a problem that can be solved easily without much expense.

I don't know how much difference these guys are really saying is the difference you might expect, but Bob is probably right again...unless you plan on installing your new Vector in his garden, all bets are off regarding the performance indicators he suggested.

I can't tell you for sure, but based on what I seen the Old Vector's may have been a bit less sturdy by construction, and if so, I would choose the New Top One, set it up just as instructed and work what you can. If the Vector performance is as good as Sirio's New Gain Master, and their New Top One, then I don't think you can go wrong and I wouldn't worry my self over getting the last bit of gain out, cause that could develop to be less than a DB.

I don't find near as much difference by comparing my antennas as others find. However, my reports do indicate my old Sigma4 performs a little better than most and it only has three legs and is not supposed to perform up to par even with a stock Vector, much less a well modified and tune Hybrid Vector.

I now have some tubing material that will allow me to make my Sigma4 longer and I'll try and duplicate this remarkable difference that is reported by others...when you make that bugger about 31' feet long and tune it real well.

I recommend the New Vector 4000, but I only have Sirio's reputation and word as the bases, because I've never seen...even a modest effort given to testing and/or comparing this antenna since it was introduced. I hear some talk, but that's it.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Marconi

 

[davev8]

Well thats pretty unanimous its the new one then....Thanks for the prompt reply
That gives me a bit of time as i am 1/2 way in to moving house so have not time at the mo
but if the 7/8 wave had been recommended id have to get one now as i dont now how long they will be available.
Two questions i have
if you know of the top of your head as it will save 3 hours looking back through this post as they have probably been stated already
1 what is the standard length of the new 4000 radiator,i can only find overall length
2 is the less bandwidth (going by info from sirio) of the new 4000 because of the longer basket or the shorter radiator?
Hopefully it will be the shorter radiator so some of this my gained back when lengthened
Thanks dave

 

[Marconi]

Well thats pretty unanimous its the new one then....Thanks for the prompt reply
That gives me a bit of time as i am 1/2 way in to moving house so have not time at the mo
but if the 7/8 wave had been recommended id have to get one now as i dont now how long they will be available.
Two questions i have
if you know of the top of your head as it will save 3 hours looking back through this post as they have probably been stated already
1 what is the standard length of the new 4000 radiator,i can only find overall length
2 is the less bandwidth (going by info from sirio) of the new 4000 because of the longer basket or the shorter radiator?
Hopefully it will be the shorter radiator so some of this my gained back when lengthened
Thanks dave

Try this Dave, Bob and a buddy of his took these measurements right off of a real New Vector 4000.

When you read the manual for the NV4000 you will note that the dimension for the static arrestor on top is not included in the measurements for length.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/ukmudduck/new%20vector%204000/newvector.png

Good luck and keep us posted. I'm really interested to get a good comparison review for this one. What will you be comparing your's too?

 

[yogi bear]

sigma 4 style homebrew

Hi Guys, my passion for cb has been recently rekindled, it's been many years but i did once own an original sigma 4, i had also owned a fake one amongst many other antenna.
I have a few questions if anyone can help.
I am building a copy with parts i have lying around but there are a few things i am not sure about, i am going to build a gamma match but i don't know the exact dimensions of the parts, does anybody know the length of the tube and rod? Must they both be aluminum? Even if the gamma match must be aluminum could the basket be made out of soldered copper tube?
I was going to make a version from wire and suspend it between two 40M pine trees but then found that i had a large glass fiber wind surfer mast and an extendable fishing pole that fits exactly in the end, i can achieve the length required and was planning on using aluminum or copper wire, to be hung on the outside (rather than inside) of the fiberglass tubes (to avoid some shielding).
So basically the questions are:
1? Gamma match dimensions, and is alu necessary? (also is there a good source for a teflon sleeve or equivalent)?
2? Can copper be used as a basket or must it be made from alu?
3? Can the main 27' 7" radiator be copper wire? or must this also be alu?
4? Does anybody know of any interesting mods. other than the obviouse waterproofing and filing the corners of the gamma match etc?
5? Since reading some more on this forum i am wondering if a thicker radiator above the basket would benefit rather than a thin wire?

So with the glass fiber poles i should be able to get the antennae to the top of the largest 50M pine tree just behind the shack although i am probably barking up the wrong tree since i live at 1200M almost at the bottom of a narrow valley on a fairly steep hillside surrounded by 3000-4000M peaks

I must admit that i've only managed to get as far as page 16 so far on this thread, i've been up all night reading and must get to bed soon, but a few thoughts, i was thinking of making the basket out of copper pipe since it would be easy to fix together, strong (but heavy) and a smooth finish, (better in wind). But is copper going to be better and is smooth a good thing?
I was going to use wire to make the cone but it seems that from what i have read here perhaps this design may benefit from thicker materials for the cone? And what about adding a second ring larger and lower down, i know that it's not exactly practical but perhaps it's worth a try, it could hang from the 30" ring and either be grounded from above or insulated from above and grounded from below (simply attached with wire or/and nylon rope from either above or below)?

What if it wasn't a cone but more of a cylinder? Average the size of the cone and make a cylindrical sheild, groundplane? Or whatever it is?

Just some mad ideas to play with, not much mathmatical theory going into that but i've got that ground plane magnetic pull feeling thing going on

James

 

[davev8]

Good luck and keep us posted. I'm really interested to get a good comparison review for this one. What will you be comparing your's too?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that
At the mo i am running a cheap 5/8 silver no name rod that was given to me not working
The problem with it was the centre tap on the coil had come un soldered
and it was a bit of a guess for the exact spot it came from...... i guessed incorrect had lengthen it to the max +add 14 inch of wire to the bottom of the
radiator!!!!! but i am on the air.
When wind drops and i can take it down i will put a sigma 2 type ring on it and some ground radials, which hopefully will last me until i finish the extending fold over mast, which the 4000 will go on

But i am with you that it wants comparing with something, so may be i put a cheap 5/8 silver rod or a antron 99 up fist, then the 4000 unmodified and the modify it.

(I always wonted to test a A99 as when they first came out every body was saying how good they are, better than this, butter then that etc... but all i see is a 1/2 wave which is a just a 1/2 wave)

Dave

 

[yogi bear]

"you may have seen this one eddie,

5/8 Wave J-Pole vs. 1/2 Wave J-Pole EZNEC Shootout | Ham Radio Help Desk
__________________"
Hi Bob 85, this is a valid point but shouldn't the 1/4 wave stub be increased in length when matching with a 5/8 wave? the comparison with the 1/2 wave shows the same length stub, i would imagine the stub needs to be increased in length to match correctly to the 5/8 wave radiator, i don't know if this would match but it seems that this is why the 5/8 wave j-pole is slightly out of phase?
Does anyone know if building a j-pole type antennae with 3 stubs or more would be possible? This may result in a more omnidirectional antenna? Perhaps the stubs would have to be shortened? But it could end up with a type of basket around the radiator?

 

[yogi bear]

not very internet savvy and a new idea on 30" ring

Sorry i've not got the hang on how to use forums yet?
I've just had an idea that i don't see anyone experimenting with at all.
Instead of using a tubular or flat section 30" ring is someone prepared to experiment with a disc shape? Obviously this is an expensive shape to manufacture from one piece and adjusting the width of the metal used would be difficult, perhaps a disc will perform differently and there could be some interesting results found by changing the thickness of the ring (difference between inside and outside diameter) So basically it would look like a big aerobe frisbee. Anyone got a big sheet of alu and a plasma cutter?
I have been reading through this debate and find it strange that after over 30 pages of discussion no-one can actually say that they have made any improvements over the stock designs.
My attempt is going to be a bit of a hash up, so far i plan to use a copper basket based around a fiberglass wind-surfer mast with a modified fishing pole stuck in the top, the main radiator will be some type of wire running down the outside of the glass fiber poles and taped into position once it comes within the basket, now i'm thinking to make this aluminum disc and bolt it to the top of the basket rather than using a copper ring, i think the basket can handle being made from copper and if it oxidizes this may help shield the lower part of the signal being radiated and encourage the signal to radiate more from above the basket, it seems this is the idea, i have a strong feeling that a disc rather than tube ring would greatly change the radiation pattern towards the horizon.
Is anyone prepared to experiment with a few different sized discs?